Curse

Tufty · Feb 28, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Im all for change however it comes.
To be honest in sword build its permanently in my skill set. I tried dragon slash but it didnt really boost my adrenaline. I find as my only energy consuming skill (other than hard rez) its very spammable and depending what Im wielding, zealous, vamp, furious or elemental it always seems to do the job. I guess generally running through the game with heroes or henchies has made me naive but Im never left wanting anything more from it. Just happy using it to spike my adrenalin/health/energy back up with.
So any positive changes are only going to help I guess. Oh and I promise to check out some of these other sword elites, I mean I did take the time to cap all the elites :P

clawofcrimson · Feb 28, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

there is not much to 'check out' quivering blade is only so so (especially compared to cleave) and crippling slash does not come close to being game breaking... the swordsmand doesnt have much to work with in pvp...and I'm sure the pve'ers would love HB even more if it got a buff...

skills are not balanced for pve however.... so the effect of this skill attacking more than one foe is only there if the other team (pvp) bunches up... which is usually not smart anyway.... so I dont think it will increase the adrenaline all that much so that you could go..... HB, GASH, HB, GASH ,HB, GASH .... it would be basically a sun and moon slash every 5 seconds with energy cost... probably compareable to having an IAS skill on as far as damage goes...

Thomas.knbk · Feb 28, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Perhaps this:

Hundred Blades {E} 5 energy, 5 recharge
Swing twice at target foe and all foes adjacent to that foe. Each swing deals an additional 2...6...8 damage per affected foe. If more than three foes are affected, Hundred Blades fails and this skill is disabled for an additional 15 seconds.

This would make it suck only slightly less, considering the times you'll actually attack 2 or more foes in PvP are rare. Just look at scythes. Those are supposed to be AoE, but only fools ball up when they face a team with Dervishes. Hundred Blades would suffer from the same thing. Then you have essentially added +6 dmg to both swings. yay? think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

I wonder, WOULD bleeding imbalance something? What is the harm of a -3 AoE degen?

oh wait. I get it.

HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gas h+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+T ab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gas h+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+T ab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gas h+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+T ab+Gash+HB+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gash+HB+Tab+Gas h= DEAD MOB

Too bad balancing is not done with retarded mobs in mind who ball up all the time. It's done with GvG in mind against good players who will spread out.
Actually, the entire concept of an AoE melee attack is stupid. Melees are built for single target DPS, not AoE. If you want AoE don't play warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameshoes3003

I still like my idea...

To be honest, it would be quite overpowered in adrenaline spikes. You'd be able to solo spike someone down if you have some caster assist. (any idea how much dmg a double Final Thrust does?)
A lesser version of it, like
5e 10r
'elite stance: for 1...15 seconds you have an additional 5.....40% to strike twice with your attack skills'
You'd be able to keep this up permanently at moderate swordmanship. You'd also get rid of the useless AoE component of this skill. A 40% chance to 'dual strike' doesn't seem overpowered to me, especially since it's too low to rely on while spiking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I like the idea of random Cripple, Bleeding, or Deep Wound but no bonus damage. Each hit would count as part of the slot machine.

Slot machines are a bad thing. Random skill effects are retarded. Desperation Blow is only used because it has that stupid synergy with Fear Me and Steady Stance.

Tarun · Feb 28, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

crippling slash does not come close to being game breaking...

Crippling Slash shouldn't even be called an elite.

Why, you ask?

[card]hamstring[/card] [card]crippling slash[/card]

I'd rather use Hamstring and take a real elite.

clawofcrimson · Feb 28, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

My vote is still for bleeding on target foe...it would not be overpowered to cause bleeding every 5 seconds (just about the same time with sever)... as to the adrenaline gain for gash....you would need 4 enemies (8 hits...25 pts of adr each hit) bunched up when you use HB for gash (160pts) to charge instantly...(you would be at 150 pts with 3)

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Adrenaline

Thomas.knbk · Feb 28, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Crippling Slash shouldn't even be called an elite.

Why, you ask?

[card]hamstring[/card] [card]crippling slash[/card]

I'd rather use Hamstring and take a real elite.

10 energy vs. 4 adrenaline hmmmmm....
But hamstring is a sucky skill to begin with so you're right. The only use it has is the deadly Harmstorm

That harmstorm remark was sarcasm

frojack · Feb 28, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Slot machines are a bad thing. Random skill effects are retarded. Desperation Blow is only used because it has that stupid synergy with Fear Me and Steady Stance.

Only if all your thinking about is calculated PvP. Random factors help make things 'not the same' all the time at a core level. Don't you ever get bored of 'perfect' variables in PvP? I sure do. Granted I admit wouldn't use it in a serious PvP match (at least not for the conditions) but it would be way more fun to use in more casual forms of play. I mean, fun is what we are after right? It holds far more value than 'Fit 100 into vast matrix-math, quaternion, quasi-cosmic battle calculation'...

It's one of the reasons I'd like to see the 'critical strike' mechanic work on spells. Do you feel lucky? You get the idea...

Perfected Shadow · Mar 01, 2007, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Hmm just change the skill name to: 'Two Blades'.
Or more seriously, maybe make it hit four times but increase the recharge so it could be used as a good spiking tool. Or with the dual strike stance idea, make the chance to double hit work on both normal attacks and attack skills.

jesh · Mar 01, 2007, 03:38 AM // 03:38

2 blades is a much better name.
Here's another idea. If this will be an elite that causes bleeding, at least make the condition ignore immunities. That means you can still Gash on a minion or Mursaat. This would help dampen one of the biggest sword warrior weaknesses.

The way I see it is like this. Triple Chop is a great PvE elite. Hundred Blades is not.
How can we fix this? Well let's compare the two. Triple Chop strikes all adjacent foes to you. Hundred Blades is basically Twin Moon Sweep with elite status; only foes adjacent to the target.
Triple Chop deals +42 damage at 16 axe mastery.
Hundred Blades deals 0.

The solution is to make Hundred Blades add 5-21 damage per hit, 21 @ 16 swordsmanship.
This would total the +42 damage from Triple Chop.
Overpowered? Hardly. Swords have lower crits than axes. They also have overall lower damage than axes. Even a +25 Hundred Blades would be OK because of this.
What about the AoE? Well to balance it with Triple Chop, changing HB to all foes adjacent to you would be a bit too much. You'd gain more than 2x the adrenaline of a comparable elite.
So make it all foes adjacent and in front of you. Basically, 180* instead of 360*.
With these changes in place, HB would still be a little weaker than Triple Chop. There's a few ways to change that.

-more bonus damage, like stated earlier
-keep the recharge lower than Triple Chop
-add unconditional bleeding

So this is what I'm thinking.. here's an example.

Hundred Blades
Type: Elite Sword Attack
Cost: 5 energy
Recharge: 8 seconds

Swing twice at target foe and adjacent foes in front of you. Each attack that hits strikes for +5....17 damage and causes unconditional bleeding.

These are my thoughts on Hundred Blades.
I also like the idea of making it a buffing skill that can work with attack skills. That's kinda neat. It should be 1/4 sec cast in that case, though. Or instant, like Dolyak Signet.

You could also change Hundred Blades to a shout, like "Find Their Weakness!". Make the recharge short enough that at 14 swordsmanship, you could keep it on 2 allies at once. That would be hoooot.
An alternative to double striking could be to cause armor ignoring damage instead. Example:

Hundred Blades
Type: Elite Shout
Cost: 5 energy
Recharge: 10 seconds

For 1....21 seconds, target ally has a 1....50% chance to have their attacks strike for an additional 15....75 damage to all adjacent foes.

Of course, the alternative is to give up and make the dang skill non elite. Increase the AoE to 180 degrees and lower the recharge to 4 seconds. Then make Final Thrust the elite, cost 4-5 strikes of adrenaline, and cause deep wound. I know my numbers aren't as balanced as Ensign would make them, but bear with me. I'm sure the skill descriptions could be tweaked, but I feel my proposed changes to Hundred Blades would make it finally worthy of elite status.

rong626 · Mar 01, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

/signed
i rarely see warrios use this skills
obviously,it needs a buff

Knight Othin Of War · Mar 01, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Adding a condition (or possibly two, though the skill would need additional tweaking for that) to the hit(s) seems like a wonderful solution to me. Bonus damage, I feel, would possibly be a bit too much, as the skill does hit twice, and is relatively spammable (the eight second down time gives you more than enough time to get the energy back, especially if using a Zealous sword). Bonus damage would be really nice though, and could probably earn this skill a slot on more Warrior bars, but the skill would require further tweaking as to not be stupidly abused by every Warrior in the game who isn't running Shadow Prison or YAA. That's of course just my own take on the subject. However, now that I think about it...

WTB Hundred Blades with modified Drunken Blow mechanics!

First hit does some bonus damage, second hit inflicts a random condition, which would be a toss between Bleeding, Deep Wound, and Crippled (Poison, Dazed, and Weakness just don't seem right for a sword attack like this). Of course, personally I feel this would justify some further tweaking of the skill, so let's add a bit of recharge time. So, let's see, as a final product, we'd get:

Hundred Blades {E}
5e / 10r
Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. If the first attack hits, you strike for +15 damage for each foe struck (maximum 50 damage). If the second attack hits, all struck foes suffer from one of the following conditions: Deep Wound (for 15 seconds), Bleeding (for 20 seconds), or Crippled (for 10 seconds).

...eh, I don't know, that still seems a little "off". But at least it's better than the current skill, which is currently not even good enough for solo farming FoW anymore.

Damn you, Dragon Slash! But oh how I love you so...

i like your idea, i would prefer it like that

/Signed

Thomas.knbk · Mar 01, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Only if all your thinking about is calculated PvP. Random factors help make things 'not the same' all the time at a core level. Don't you ever get bored of 'perfect' variables in PvP? I sure do. Granted I admit wouldn't use it in a serious PvP match (at least not for the conditions) but it would be way more fun to use in more casual forms of play. I mean, fun is what we are after right? It holds far more value than 'Fit 100 into vast matrix-math, quaternion, quasi-cosmic battle calculation'...

It's one of the reasons I'd like to see the 'critical strike' mechanic work on spells. Do you feel lucky? You get the idea...

Some people find playing to win fun.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

Sure, it would be fun for a short while, but wouldn't you get bored after a while from losing all the time because you gimp yourself with a suboptimal build? Wouldn't you switch back to a good elite after a day or two if you kept losing? And you will keep losing because you are using a suboptimal build. If you know what a skill is going to do, you can focus your build around it, making a better build than you could make with something unreliable. After all, Desperation Blow is not used for the conditional effect: it's used for the part that you're sure is going to happen: a self knockdown giving you infinite adrenaline and a load of energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

The solution is to make Hundred Blades add 5-21 damage per hit, 21 @ 16 swordsmanship.
This would total the +42 damage from Triple Chop.
Overpowered? Hardly. Swords have lower crits than axes. They also have overall lower damage than axes. Even a +25 Hundred Blades would be OK because of this.

You're forgetting the damage comes in two packages, making it much better against enemies using protective spirit. The opposite is true for Shield of Absorption and Shielding Hands, but those are hardly relevant.
This is not to say it's a bad idea, because it isn't. It's just something to point out.

tijo · Mar 01, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Hundred Blades {E}
5e / 10r
Swing twice at target foe and foes adjacent to your target. If the first attack hits, you strike for +15 damage for each foe struck (maximum 50 damage). If the second attack hits, all struck foes suffer from one of the following conditions: Deep Wound (for 15 seconds), Bleeding (for 20 seconds), or Crippled (for 10 seconds).

I like this one but i would lower damage on the first strike a bit and make the second strike cause bleeding for 10..15 secs.

MithranArkanere · Mar 01, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Hm... [wiki]Hundred Blades[/wiki]? Currently the skill acts like unlinked... I hate linked attacks acting like unliked.

They could just make it more like its name:
- More hits fit the name.
- Conditions do not fit the name.
- Since there would be tons of hits, they should follow the 'lots of quick hits deal less damage' rule.

Result:

Sword Attack. Attack 2..10 times target foe, and all foes adjacent to target foe, for a maximum of 10 foes. Each hit will make 25% of normal damage.

The minimum damage with perfect sword would be:
2*15..22= (30..44) /4=(7..11) Fitting Swordmanship 0.

With Swordsmanship 12 and a single target:
10*15..22= (150..220) /4= (37..55) effective damage per foe.

The maximum (swordsmanship 12, 10 hits to 10 enemies=100 hits):
(37..55)*10=(370..550) Total damage dealt by the skill, that fits correctly an elite skill.

I think this would make the skill work more like its name...
Remember that this skill is ment to build adrenaline and trigger on hit effects more than to deal damage.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 01, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

So at 16 swordsmanship you would attack them 13 times, for a total of ~400 dmg from a single attack

Can you say overpowered?

Priest Of Sin · Mar 01, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

It must be elite, or the IW mesmers will suddenly become viable!!!!! O wait. No they won't. Because IW sucks. Yeah, that makes more sense. Anet, buff this frigging skill to make it on par with Triple Chop at least...

MithranArkanere · Mar 01, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

So at 16 swordsmanship you would attack them 13 times, for a total of ~400 dmg from a single attack

Can you say overpowered?

Nope, the maximum ammout of hits would be always 100 and to each enemy would be alwasy 10, no matter the points in Swordmanship.

2,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,7,8 ,9 ,10,10,10,10,10
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16

100 blades, 100 hits.

Once you reach that maximum, increasing Swordmanship won'td o anything for this skill, but increasing critical like it currently does.

Alas, the 25% damage means "damage/4" not "damage-25%", so it would be impossible to deal such damage you say to a single target.
And never forget, in PvP it's almost impossible to get to 10 adjacent enemies (only in a very absurd 12vs12 or agains Minions this could happen) and in PvE, enemies will start to run away in the second hit.

BahamutKaiser · Mar 01, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

None of the Sword Elites are spectactular, Dragon Slash is the only one which does significant damage as well as offering an additional adrenaline return.

Bleeding isn't appropriate, it is made to hit several foes repeatedly. The issue here is the overestimated value of AoE damage overall, it is overstated in Elementist and Dervish as well, this is an issue which should be addressed throught the game, Adjacent foe damage should not cost so much, using AoE attacks is a way to overcome groups, if enemies are taking AoE damage on several units than they are falling victim to poor character placement or group enhancement limitations. Abilities which attack nearby, area and earshot can understandably require some additional cost, but Multiple target damage is a situation enabled by good enemy selection and bad enemy character placement, not and additional cost.

Seeing as Sun and Moon Strike is harder to build up, but is unblockable, without being an elite, HB could use a slight buff. HB has a significant advantage in that it strikes a foe and adjacent foes, and is energy based, meaning it can build up adrenaline very quickly for other attacks if it hits several foes, but since multiple target effects are an advantage to good target selection, and bad enemy placement, perhaps HB should strike 3 times.

Adding additional damage basicly makes it death blossom with better adrenaline return and no combo requirements, that is too powerful, and adding bleeding on a multi hit attack is too powerful as well, multiple hits including conditions are Assassin features, not Warriors.

The issue here is that it is elite, it should have a significant impact. It is alright if it cost alot to include a significant effect, if HB strikes 3, even 4 times but cost 10 or 15 energy, it would be alright, a powerful spike of repeated hits and adrenaline return. I think 4 strikes is broken because it basicly returns more adrenaline than Dragon slash by hitting just one target and is energy based, maybe Dragon Slash needs a lower cost and HB needs a higher cost and more strikes, I would appreciate 3 strikes for 10 energy, and a 8-10 second recharge.

It isn't like Sword Warriors don't have Elites to use either though, there are plenty of powerful Strength elites which work with swords for powerful output. And Tactics includes some powerful counter attacks which only work with swords, it isn't the highlight of a sword warrior, but reducing damage wile dealing additional damage is useful.

But anyway, back to the real issue, AoE damage is overestimated, that is where the issue lies, and that is what I have been trying to hit home since I started playing GW, All these weak, overpriced and under effective AoE effects make entire skill types poor options. This is a broad spectrum issue, and it isn't going to be addressed with just HB and not with the rest of the skills and characters, Anet needs to offer better AoE use and effects throught the game.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 01, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Nope, the maximum ammout of hits would be always 100 and to each enemy would be alwasy 10, no matter the points in Swordmanship.

2,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,6,7,8 ,9 ,10,10,10,10,10
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16

100 blades, 100 hits.

Once you reach that maximum, increasing Swordmanship won'td o anything for this skill, but increasing critical like it currently does.

Alas, the 25% damage means "damage/4" not "damage-25%", so it would be impossible to deal such damage you say to a single target.
And never forget, in PvP it's almost impossible to get to 10 adjacent enemies (only in a very absurd 12vs12 or agains Minions this could happen) and in PvE, enemies will start to run away in the second hit.

Guild Wars doesn't work that way. Every skill is linear. It'd either have to be 1..8.10 or 1..10.12.
Ok so my bad about the dmg. You'd only deal 100 dmg, or 1000 vs. 10 opponents (which is never going to happen anyway).
Agreed, it's a little less overpowered that way.

MithranArkanere · Mar 01, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Guild Wars doesn't work that way. Every skill is linear. It'd either have to be 1..8.10 or 1..10.12.
Ok so my bad about the dmg. You'd only deal 100 dmg, or 1000 vs. 10 opponents (which is never going to happen anyway).
Agreed, it's a little less overpowered that way.

100dmg? Geez? You read what people write?
hatever it is, the damage is not the real deal with this skill, but the number of hits.

Making it Unblockable could be enough too, but all warrior unblockables are tactics-linked, but one, that is Streght-linked... don't know if that could be possible.